You hit the nail on the head. My thoughts exactly. So many groups, not just religious ones, have been persecuted throughout history. There should never be a nation based on one’s religion in the first place. It’s absolutely absurd.
You hit the nail on the head. My thoughts exactly. So many groups, not just religious ones, have been persecuted throughout history. There should never be a nation based on one’s religion in the first place. It’s absolutely absurd.
Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt aas well as many other countries, e.g. in Asia and Africa are wholly Muslim or, if not, tolerate religious minorities. Large Jewish minorities in all of these countries have been reduced to near zero by ethnic cleansing. So much for your claim that there should never be a nation based on one's religion
You are talking about 'ethnic cleansing'. Imagine a grand ledger before you right now, with a vertical line down the middle. You can enter the verifiable body count of Jews killed by ethnic cleansing in these places, in the column on the left and the muslims killed by jews or western 'Christians' on the right. You may wish to brush up on scientific notation first.
In my lifetime alone, I have witnessed literally millions of muslims slaughtered and yet perhaps a few hundred jews or christians killed by muslims in the same period. So who is ethnically cleansing who ?
I like to put up a map of Israel from 1946 in that column on the left and a map from this year , on the right and get people like yourself to argue how the Palestinians are the problem using the irrefutable maps. It should be classic comedy of the absurd.
In either case, neither numbers or maps lie and I wish people would stop embarrassing both of us by attempting to do so.
Jews were as barbaric as any other religion in ancient times. They wandered into Palestine and set up camp about 3000 years ago. The Egyptians made a note when a tribe called Judah arrived. Colonists then as now. To be fair, in the times everyone was doing the same thing. The invasion of 1947/48 and the colonial State of Israel happened when everyone was not doing the same thing.
I always say the Jews of the late 19th/early 20th century were a bit late to the game of colonialism and are upset that contemporary folk don’t afford them the same barbarity of previous eras. They decided to colonise when colonialism was out of fashion & universal human rights started to become all the rage (ironically, in large part, because of their suffering). In other words, they have desperately been trying to have their cake and eat it since 1948..
Well said. Since we have thousands of years of historical records and images for Palestinians in Palestine, and we know Israel was invented in Palestine nearly 80 years ago, logic decrees that Israel sits in the land of Palestine and everything Israelis say is theirs actually belongs to Palestinians. It has all been stolen.
We also know that since 530 Palestinian towns and villages were wiped from the face of the earth by Zionist forces in 47/48 that logically, a lot of Palestinians were exterminated or expelled. Israel has built and planted over the ruins but we know where they are because they remain marked on British mandate maps and even more ancient maps of Palestine.
Colonisation was no doubt a critical part of human evolution for thousands of years. It diminished as humans evolved. By the time the Zionists were making their plans to colonise Palestine they had missed the use-by date for such actions by more than a century.
Colonialism was not so much out of fashion as not required and deemed to be unjust. The Zionists were racists and atheists and have never represented Judaism, just exploited it and too many equally racist and gullible Jews.
The reality is that if the Israelis had been smart and not racists they would have done what all other nations founded through colonisation and calling themselves Western democracies have done and that is one state where the native people share the land as equal citizens with the colonists. They did not do that because their racism was entrenched and they really did and do believe non-Jews are inferior and Palestinian non-Jews, are subhuman.
Since Zionism is a half a century older than Nazism we can only wonder who got Untermenschen from whom.
If Zionists, Israelis and too many Jews did not have this rabid and racist belief in the subhuman nature of the Palestinians, they could have created a vibrant State and a healthy democracy. The Palestinians have a long history of sophistication, civilisation and respect for education and culture. The combination of the groups would have been inspiring.
But that did not happen and Israel as it was formed and as it has functioned is a taint on the modern world and an open wound for Judaism. It must be dismantled. Israelis and their supporters are too brainwashed in hate, bigotry, fear and irrational rage to ever be able to live alongside the Palestinians. There would be some exceptions but they are few. Most will have to go back to where they, their parents or grandparents came from.
Many already have with young Israelis doing exactly that in recent decades and one of the largest communities is in Berlin. They feel safer in Germany than Israel all of which validates the reality that an Israel for Jews as refuge was never needed and certainly is not needed now.
It needs to be remembered that colonial States can be dismantled after centuries. The Portugese went back after 500 years in Angola so 76 years of European colonists in Palestine, is, by comparison, nothing but a blink of time's eye.
Well said, Roslyn. Zionism is a uniquely ultra racist ideology that has spawned a state that has almost zero viability. The only other comparable ideology is nazism and we all know how well that went..
We struggle to get the facts and the truth from events of the last 100 or even 20 years. Lets not cite alledged events that happened even before the invention of the printing press. 614 AD was back when everyone was slaughtering everyone, before anger management was invented.
If you want something a little more reliable to accuse Israelis of, in their treatment of Christians, search Youtube for Israelis spitting on Christians including Nuns and barring prelates from practicing their faith and carrying out church business .... all within the last couple years and captured on video.
Before the printing press there was papyrus and writings carved in stone. We know a lot more about such times than you think. It is because of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs we know Palestine and Palestinians have existed for more than 5000 years and they invaded Egypt more than once.
So you believe the archivists of the past 1500 years kept their papyrus and fought to the death any Pope or King or politician from messing with it or getting access to the time activated vault it was stored in ? What was stopping a jew, sitting on a rock, from scratching "It never happened. I was there" on a stone and putting it in a cave ? If you walked into a court today with your evidence, what do you think the judge would have to say, if they even let you see one ? There is not a whimper of a prayer of these events being awarded any credibility and that is not to say it didn't happen. Maybe they killed 100,000. Nobody would know for sure but lots will claim confidence in their numbers for no credible reason.
I agree that the printing press made more information and data available but that too was prone to rewrites and tampering. And ancient writings ranged from the largely daily banalities of lists and wishes, for good and ill, to the claimed conquests of Kings.
I merely make the point that there was information available from ancient times prior to the invention of the printing press. Hieroglyphs and Cuneiform go back thousands of years and when transcribed, as the Rosetta Stone made possible for the former, are invaluable.
As to credibility, that is where the gathering of historical data to support the claims is so important. Yes, much of archaeology is conjecture and supposition but there are also facts available to make a case.
But in essence I agree with you that what matters is the contemporary evidence for savagery by the Israelis.
Get your terms right. Palestine was a rename given by the Romans to Israel after the destruction of the Second Temple. It alludes to the Philistines who colonised Gaza in ancient times. I am not sure that Philistines ever invaded Egypt, or even Israel for that matter. Egypt invaded both areas.
Since we have clear evidence that the words Palestine and Palestinians were written down by the Egyptians more than 5000 years ago, carved in stone, we know that Palestine was not a name given by the Romans who did not even exist until thousands of years after the Palestinians were being talked about in Egypt.
Same for the Philistines, a people who did not exist until thousands of years after the Palestinians and Palestine were mentioned.
Yes Egypt invaded both areas and the Palestinians invaded Egypt more than once. I suggest you study Egyptology and get the facts.
The Philistine/Roman blather is Zio propaganda trying to prove that Palestine was invented later. It was not and it is ridiculous to claim that it was.
And as an aside for the Bible worshippers, the story of the Jews fleeing Egypt is yet another lie, as is the story they were slaves. The Egyptians never mentioned them and no the Habiru theory does not cut it, and when the Jews were supposedly fleeing to Palestine/Canaan it was an Egyptian colony so they would have been fleeing Egypt into Egypt.
The Zionists pushed, promoted and actively created false flags to bully, bribe, terrify Jews living safely in Arab and Muslim countries to become colonists in Palestine. More Zio lies. Most Iranian Jews did not fall for it and remained in their homeland.
When Europeans drove Jews out centuries ago it was the Arab and Muslim worlds which offered them sanctuary. Stick with facts, it works better.
As to a religion needing its own country, since most Jews do not, never did and never will live in what is called Israel we can safely conclude it was never necessary. The most dangerous place for a Jew is what is called Israel. The sickest culture in which anyone can live, including Jews, is Israel. How fortunate most do not live there.
In fact even after the horrors for Jews in WWII most did not choose to go to Palestine and what is called Israel as colonists.
None of those countries are "wholly Muslim". The Jewish minorities that were removed were removed through Mossad-generated bombings back in the 50's and 60's. Not ethnic cleansing on the part of those Arab (and Persian) countries. What are you? A bot?
I never said that they were wholly Muslim but they did have large Jewish populations but not any more. As for Mossad bombs to ‘persuade’ them to move to Israel I don’t know for certain whether that happened or not and you probably don’t know either. Muslims don’t treat minority faiths very well. There aren’t many Christian’s left in Bethlehem for instance. And Egypt doesn’t treat Coptic Christians very well either.
Actually, I do know because I grew up in the Middle East. When these false flag operations were being done in Syria in 1956 all Americans were kicked out temporarily to protect the sovereignty of the country--the CIA was working with Mossad in that case. And in Iran 40% of my graduating class were Iraqi Jews who were bribed by the Shah to take professional jobs--mostly in the oil fields--when Saddam Hussein first came to power in 1963. As Prof. Shlaim has written, many Iraqi Jews were convinced through terrorist violence to emigrate to Israel where they were treated extremely badly. Most Middle Eastern jews who emigrated to Israel ended up there in this manner and shared the same experience of racism by Ashkenazi as the Iraqi Jews of the early 1950's. My classmates moved as a large community, most of them related by blood in 1963, not so much because of the Mossad as because the Shah was offering them nice salaries. And after the Iranian Revolution they moved to other countries as a large community and most have done very well. Only a few went to Israel but left shortly thereafter because they were treated as servants, second-class citizens, there. Traditionally Muslims have treated their religious minorities quite well, in fact. Read up on the Islamic Empire which reached to Spain. It was the Christians who were particularly violent. Zionists are not very tolerant. They are currently trying to remove Christians of various tripes from the West Bank which is where most of the places Christians want to visit are. It sounds like they have bombed most Christian churches in Gaza to smithereens. They are very actively trying to steal the entire Armenian Quarter of Jerusalem. You sound like a representative of the Israeli propaganda machine. Knock yourself out. The truth is more effective. And long-lasting. I suggest you read some real history rather than bullshit the ZOA disseminates.
Thank you for a very interesting reply. I won’t argue with any of it. Partly because you are discussing events of which I have no knowledge and partly because I know that Ashkenazim were prejudiced against Jews of colour (and probably still are but to a lesser extent). Yemeni Jews had their babies stolen at birth, told they had died but there were no bodies to bury. They had been sold to adoptees. Ethiopian Jews had difficulty being accepted.
If you have no knowledge of such events then we can safely conclude you have little real knowledge. Anyone wishing to understand this issue would and should have such knowledge.
Christians leaving Bethlehem are not doing so because of any specific actions or pressure by Israel directed against the community.
I asked ChatGPT. This is its reply
“The Christian population of Bethlehem has decreased in recent years due to several factors:
1. **Political Instability and Conflict**: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has significantly impacted the region, leading to a decline in the local economy and creating a challenging living environment. The construction of the Israeli separation barrier, restrictions on movement, and periodic violence have made life difficult for residents, prompting many to emigrate.
2. **Economic Hardships**: Bethlehem's economy, traditionally reliant on tourism, has suffered due to the political situation. Security concerns and travel restrictions have deterred tourists, reducing income for local businesses. Economic opportunities in Bethlehem are limited, pushing many, particularly Christians, to seek better prospects abroad.
3. **Emigration**: Many Christians in Bethlehem have emigrated to the West or other countries with more stable environments. The pull of better economic opportunities, combined with the push of local hardships, has led to a significant outflow of the Christian population.
4. **Demographic Changes**: The overall population in Bethlehem and the West Bank is growing, but the Christian community is shrinking proportionally due to lower birth rates compared to the Muslim population and higher emigration rates.
5. **Social Pressures**: Some Christians in Bethlehem have reported feeling increasing social pressures as a religious minority, which can contribute to their decision to leave.
These factors combined have led to a steady decline in the Christian population in Bethlehem, a trend seen in other parts of the Middle East as well.”
To run through your excuses for Christians leaving Palestine.
1. **Political Instability and Conflict**: - caused by Israel with the goal of exterminating or expelling all non-Jews.
2. **Economic Hardships**: Caused by Israel seeking to rid Palestine of all non-Jews. An active policy by the Israeli military colonial rulers.
3. **Emigration**: Pushed and caused by Israel under its policy of ethnic cleansing. Make life impossible to rid Palestine of non-Jews.
4. **Demographic Changes**: Caused by Israel making life impossible for non-Jews.
5. **Social Pressures**: From the Israelis who work to rid Palestine of non-Jews.
We have Jews defecating and urinating in Christian churches and spitting on Christians in the street as well as murdering and maiming them as they do with Muslims so why would it be surprising if some have left? All Israeli policy, procedure and practice.
I did laugh. Anyone who asks ChatGPT is either about 12 years old or lacking adult intelligence. For heaven’s sake, the chat stuff is all propaganda and totally unreliable.
The ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Christians that nobody is talking about
As Christmas approaches, it is sad to reflect on the fact that Palestinian Christians are leaving the birthplace of Christianity in droves. For Israel, this exodus is a boon as a Palestine without Christians will enable it, in a world rife with Islamophobia, to portray its conflict with Palestine as a religious war. Ramzy Baroud explains.
Palestine’S Christian population is dwindling at an alarming rate. The world’s most ancient Christian community is moving elsewhere. And the reason for this is Israel.
Christian leaders from Palestine and South Africa sounded the alarm at a conference in Johannesburg on 15 October. Their gathering was titled ‘The Holy Land: A Palestinian Christian Perspective’.
One major issue that highlighted itself at the meetings is the rapidly declining number of Palestinian Christians in Palestine.
There are various estimates on how many Palestinian Christians are still living in Palestine today, compared with the period before 1948 when the state of Israel was established atop Palestinian towns and villages. Regardless of the source of the various studies, there is a near-consensus that the number of Christian inhabitants of Palestine has dropped by nearly 10-fold in the last 70 years.
A population census carried out by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics in 2017 concluded that 47,000 Palestinian Christians are living in Palestine – with reference to the Occupied West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip. Ninety-eight percent of Palestine’s Christians live in the West Bank – concentrated mostly in the cities of Ramallah, Bethlehem and Jerusalem – while the remainder, a tiny Christian community of merely 1,100 people, live in the besieged Gaza Strip.
The demographic crisis that had afflicted the Christian community decades ago is now brewing.
For example, 70 years ago, Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus Christ, was 86% Christian. The demographics of the city, however, have fundamentally shifted, especially after the Israeli occupation of the West Bank in June 1967 and the construction of the illegal Israeli apartheid wall starting in 2002. Parts of the wall were meant to cut off Bethlehem from Jerusalem and to isolate the former from the rest of the West Bank.
‘The Wall encircles Bethlehem by continuing south of East Jerusalem in both the east and west,’ the ‘Open Bethlehem’ organisation said, describing the devastating impact of the wall on the Palestinian city. ‘With the land isolated by the Wall, annexed for settlements, and closed under various pretexts, only 13% of the Bethlehem district is available for Palestinian use.’
Increasingly beleaguered, Palestinian Christians in Bethlehem have been driven out from their historic city in large numbers. According to the city’s mayor, Vera Baboun, as of 2016, the Christian population of Bethlehem has dropped to 12%, merely 11,000 people.
The most optimistic estimates place the overall number of Palestinian Christians in the whole of Occupied Palestine at less than 2%.
Pressure of Israeli occupation
The correlation between the shrinking Christian population in Palestine, and the Israeli occupation and apartheid should be unmistakable, as it is evident to Palestine’s Christian and Muslim communities alike.
A study conducted by Dar al-Kalima University in the West Bank town of Beit Jala and published in December 2017 interviewed nearly 1,000 Palestinians, half of them Christian and the other half Muslim. One of the main goals of the research was to understand the reason behind the depleting Christian population in Palestine.
The study concluded that ‘the pressure of Israeli occupation, ongoing constraints, discriminatory policies, arbitrary arrests, confiscation of lands added to the general sense of hopelessness among Palestinian Christians’, who are finding themselves in ‘a despairing situation where they can no longer perceive a future for their offspring or for themselves’.
Unfounded claims that Palestinian Christians are leaving because of religious tensions between them and their Muslim brethren are, therefore, irrelevant.
I suggest that the Jewish population of Iran would leave for other countries if they could. As it is, they are a captive population and have to be extremely careful to avoid being seen to give comfort in any way to Israel
The ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab and North African countries post 1948 is a matter of record and parallels Arabs who left Palestine because of the Nakba during Israel’s War of Independence. Ethnic cleansing in these cases does not equate to lives lost.
Also, Muslim lives lost to Crusaders or military actions by Western nation both pre- and post-1948 are not directly the fault of Israel. Western nations have always had their own reasons for seeking hegemonic dominance of the area.
However, Israel does exact a very high price in Muslim Arab lives in retaliation for the lives of Jews killed by Palestinian Arabs who ‘resist’ occupation. This practice has not succeeded in deterring Arab resistance to occupation. It’s not that Arabs hold their lives more cheaply. Rather they welcome martyrdom in the service of Islam. This is at odds with Judeo-Christian values and is irreconcilable. There used to be a cadre of Israelis who understood the Arab psyche, spoke Arabic and knew how to live with them. There are fewer of them now, replaced by right-wing demagogues with an antipathy to Arabs which militates against compromise.
I'm sorry. Please expand. I do not understand either comment you have made here. How is "the claim of refugee to go to Israel is imagine building" related to "the asylum seekers coming across US south borders".
How long are you going to repeat the lies of the West? It’s really getting old. It’s also a matter of record that Muslims,Jews and Christians all got along before the Zionists came and stole land that didn’t belong to them. These religious groups all lived pretty much in peace before the Zionist influence. You spout stuff with no evidence. It’s not about Judaism. It’s about Zionism. You don’t even have to be Jewish to be a Zionist. This movement started way before the Holocaust. Please quit lying. Most Jews want nothing to do with Zionism. Listen to Holocaust survivors who have come out against Israel and people like Miko Peled who is a former IOF member and lived in Israel and whose father was a strong Zionist, but he chose to become an activist for a free Palestine. He is Israeli and Jewish, btw.
I try hard to tell the truth as I understand it to be. If I say something that can be proven to be categorically untrue I will apologise and not repeat it. Muslims, Jews and Christians did get along pretty well as long as the Christians and Jews knew their place as second class, paid their taxes and were useful. It didn’t always prevent the occasional massacre. As for stealing the land you should choose your words more carefully. Zionists bought the land with hard cash from Arab landowners. No land was stolen from individual Arabs. When independence was declared in 1948 properties vacated by Arabs were taken over and occupied (stolen if you like) by opportunist Jews but their actions were analogous to similar events in Arab countries which ethnically cleansed their Jewish populations and appropriated their assets without compensation. I know two wrongs don’t make a right but ‘Palestine’ prior to the arrival of Zionists had indigenous Jews as well as Arabs and the Jews hadn’t colonised it, the Arabs had.
Another Zio lie. Yes Zionists bought some land in Palestine through bullying, bribery and dishonesty but the amount was truly trivial. None of it gave them the right to take the whole country.
By your criteria because Jews own land in the US they can invade, occupy, set up their own State (well they have in a way) and treat Americans as they treat Palestinians.
SAME MISTAKE - remember, apples with apples. You cannot compare Jews, a religion, with Arabs a culture.
And let us not fib or actively lie. Palestine has a history going back more than 5000 years and it belongs to the Palestinian people, regardless of their religion. Palestine does not belong to Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus or any other religion. It belongs to Palestinians and it will be free.
Two wrongs do not make a right and there is something truly evil about Jews doing to Christians and Muslims in Palestine what was done to many European Jews during WWII. And doing it for nearly 80 years not four or five. It is horrifying that Israeli Zio-Jewish culture teaches their children the concept of Untermenschen, that non-Jews are inferior and Palestinian non-Jews are not even human and can be crushed like insects. Just a nuisance that there is so much blood and not just some icky white goo.
Re land purchase by bullying, bribery and dishonesty, where is your evidence for this claim?
Re the right to take the whole country, I refer you to this extract
“In international law, there is a principle in international law referred to as Uti Possidetus Juris, literally translating to “as you possess,” a Roman legal doctrine first cited in private municipal law.
Uti Possidetus Juris maintains that when a new country is created where there was not a separate country previously, the borders of the new country are identical to the borders of the last top-level geopolitical entity in that territory. Professor Kontorovich illustrated this concept with the example of Crimea, which the international community regards as currently occupied by Russia but truly part of Ukraine. The reason for this international consensus is that Ukraine declared independence upon the dissolution of the USSR–the last top geopolitical entity in the territory–thus taking on boundaries that included within it the newly-constituted independent Ukraine.
In May 1948, Israel declared its independence, meaning that by the accepted legal principle of Uti Possidetis Juris, the new state inherited the same borders as Mandatory Palestine, which came before it, specifically the land from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. It is important to note that Palestine did not declare statehood when Israel did. Instead, they willingly handed their fate to invading armies of a combined Arab force drawn from neighboring states. If the Palestinians had declared independence, then the two forces would have fought for the power to govern the new state with borders set by the mandate. However, that legal fight for governance never materialized. Therefore, when we apply the rule of international law that is used to determine the borders of all new countries, Israel must be recognized as the only successor entity to the mandate.”
Are you genuinely interested in evidence where the Zionists stole the land of the Palestinians that fled due to the pograms and violence visited upon them by the irgun, for example?? So you see no evidence in the history books that supports the fact that the Palestinians that were driven out of their villages were NOT allowed to return and that their homes and land were illegally given to the European Jews??
You need evidence for that? Ok, sure. Read Ilan Pape, Rashid Khalidi, Edward Said, amongst others.
Well said. Since we have thousands of years of historical records and images for Palestinians in Palestine, and we know Israel was invented in Palestine nearly 80 years ago, logic decrees that Israel sits in the land of Palestine and everything Israelis say is theirs actually belongs to Palestinians. It has all been stolen.
We also know that since 530 Palestinian towns and villages were wiped from the face of the earth by Zionist forces in 47/48 that logically, a lot of Palestinians were exterminated or expelled. Israel has built and planted over the ruins but we know where they are because they remain marked on British mandate maps and even more ancient maps of Palestine.
Re the right to take the whole country, I refer you to this extract
“In international law, there is a principle in international law referred to as Uti Possidetus Juris, literally translating to “as you possess,” a Roman legal doctrine first cited in private municipal law.
So you are saying because Jews have bought land in any country they have a right to take the entire country as their own?
You said: Uti Possidetus Juris maintains that when a new country is created where there was not a separate country previously, the borders of the new country are identical to the borders of the last top-level geopolitical entity in that territory.
BUT THERE WAS A SEPARATE COUNTRY AND THAT COUNTRY WAS CALLED PALESTINE AND HAD BEEN FOR MORE THAN 5000 YEARS.
That gazumps your silly rules spewed up by the bot.
However, since Israel has no declared borders it does not exist and the only country which does exist is Palestine. Also, since the Zionist invasion of 1947 following the UN recommendation for partition has not abided by the UN recommendation then that UN mandate is null and void. More important, the UN, League of nations and Lord Balfour had no legal right to partition any country on earth so the 1947 UN recommendation was not just immoral it was illegal. LET'S TEST IT IN A COURT OF LAW SHALL WE?
I disagree the indigenous Jews were the ones who lived there with the indigenous Palestinians. I never said the Jews shouldn’t be there at all, but it’s the Zionists who are the problem. These groups were at peace with each other for the most part until the Zionists came.
Not all the time. Sometimes the Arabs would turn on the Christians and the Jews, slit a few throats pour encourager les autres. Early Jewish settlers in Palestine had similar problems. There was a massacre in Hebron. My grandparents feared for their lives in Jerusalem pre-WW1.
Lots of people have feared for their lives throughout history but it does not give them the right to become bestial sadists toward others as the Israelis have done.
Arab - culture. Christian and Jew - religion. Get it right.
Hindus in India are still murdering Christians and Muslims. It happens. That would not give Muslims and Christians the right to do the same to Hindus as Jews think they can do to Palestinian Christians and Muslims.
The bestial sadists were Hamas on 7 October. Israel, on the other hand, is fighting a remarkably humane war. It may not seem like it. It doesn’t seem like it. But the kill ratios support my view and this is widely recognised by military observers. Example. When the USA and allies bombed Mosul in their attempt to destroy ISIS, they cared not a jot about the far greater deaths of innocents nor were they criticised for their actions.
The Palestinians are mere amateurs for bestiality and sadistic cruelty compared to the Israelis and we have that reality documented for nearly 80 years. Not just Israeli and international human rights groups but the testimonies of ex soldiers sickened at what they saw, did and were ordered to do.
The Israeli army will go down as one of the most bestial and evil in history. So much for their humanity:
1. Israeli snipers shooting pregnant women in the stomach and filming themselves wearing T shirts saying ONE SHOT TWO KILLS.
2. Israeli soldiers shooting toddlers in the head when they are playing. International doctors have reported that the number of toddlers killed in this way is huge.
3. Israeli soldiers stripping men and boys, tying them up, tossing them into pits and executing them.
4. Israeli soldiers shooting children trying to reach food and water.
5. Israeli soldiers shooting doctors inside hospitals as they try to save patients.
6. Israel denying medical aid so amputations and C-sections are done without anaesthetics. Many of the injured are children and some have had two, three, even four limbs removed without anaesthetics. Many of them have had eyes removed.
7. Israeli soldiers digging up cemeteries.
8. Israeli soldiers running excavators and tanks over dead or injured Palestinian men, women and children.
9 Israeli soldiers destroying Palestinian food.
10. Israeli soldiers playing with the lingerie of Palestinian women.
11. Israeli soldiers killing aid workers.
12. Israeli soldiers killing people trying to reach food.
13. Israeli soldiers actively targeting civilians knowing nearly half of them are children.
14. The death of Hind Rahab. A six year old girl travelling with family when the Israelis bombed their car and she was left alive with everyone else dead. She managed to call for help and emergency workers went out to rescue her. But the Israelis killed her, remember she is six years old, and then killed the aid workers trying to save her. The sadists sent 355 bullets into the car where she was hiding in terror.
Would you also be equally at home with ethnic Muslims, ethnic Christians, ethnic Wiccans declaring a state? The ethnic Muslims of China would choose to go and colonise modern day Saudi Arabia since their ancestors were the early Meccans, they could claim.. and, as per western media, they have been genocided by the Chinese.. so the same logic behind the creation myth of the state of Israel would definitely apply. All anybody would have to do is follow rhetorical textbook example of Israel. Declaring a religion an ethnicity: check! Persecution because of ethnicity/religion: check! Chosen-ness: well, anyone can say they were chosen and the proof is that god or the fairy at the bottom of their garden told them so, so: check!
The Yazidus in Iraq have been historically persecuted. Should they declare an ethnic Yazidi state? Would you support that? The Uighur should also declare their own state (after all, the west has declared their plight a genocide committed by the godless Chinese). How about the Church of Satan?
Why isn’t America exclusively a Protestant country that represents all Protestants around the world since the early colonisers themselves, were persecuted by the church and many fled to the new world driven by that religious persecution??
Now, if you think the Jews have an exclusive right to statehood based on a) persecution: they’re not the first or last religious group to be persecuted;
and b) chosen-ness: everyone and their dog thinks their special..then you’re argument is not even weak it’s non existent..
I’ll give you that. What I mean is I get what you’re saying, but that doesn’t justify what is going on now in Gaza. Do you not know about the rapes of Palestinian men in those horrific Israeli prisons? The murder of the 6 year old Palestinian girl and her whole family when they were trying to escape the air strikes from American/Israeli bombs and then the two ambulance drivers also killed by Israeli tanks? The murdering of doctors in hospitals in Gaza just trying to save babies? The children whose heads, limbs, arms etc. that have been blown off?! Where have you been. There is nothing you can tell me that will justify this genocide. Not saying you are doing that, but this is happening now. And don’t say Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields b/c that’s been debunked just like the 40 beheaded babies and it’s actually the Israelis that use Palestinians as human shields going into the tunnels to find Hamas fighters and use their own citizens as human shields(Hannibal Directive). There is plenty of evidence to back this up.
The Jews were a truly trivial and tiny part of Palestinian society. But, even if they had been a majority they still had no right to take Palestine for their theocratic, racist, colonial state.
No Jew has a right to claim a grain of sand on planet earth regardless of any reasons or excuses. Same for all religions.
No Jew has a right to Palestine and no human being has a right to take someone else's country with genocidal ethnic cleansing and then subject the native people who are left to a truly sadistic, bestial, cruel level of colonial savagery.
Israel is and was always illegal and immoral and its appalling and evil treatment of the Palestinians for nearly 80 years is a taint on Judaism and Jews and an abiding reason why Ziorael must be eradicated.
Muslims would rather live long lives than die young, the same as Jews or Christians or atheists. However, if reclaiming their ancestral lands will result from Palestinians dying, they will die for their land and, more importantly, for the next generations and for their parents' and grandparents' traumatic loss of rights. Jews and Christians also will die for their so-called "values". Look at how we treat American soldiers who die while "serving". (What a ridiculous word.) And how IDF who die in a war are treated as heroes. What did they do that was heroic? The "cadre of Israelis" who were more tuned into Arabs were actually Arabs, forcefully manipulated to emigrate from their natal Arab countries. Their kids are the assholes following right-wing demagogues. I think Ben Gvir is Iraqi Jewish. The other two--Smotrich and I can't remember his made-up name--are Ukrainian or Polish. Some people know Arabic to some degree. But the way colonialism works is the minority knows more of the majority culture than the majority knows the minority. That's why African-Americans know way more about European-American culture than European-Americans know of Black culture. They have to in order to survive. Anglos don't have to know shit. Jewish Israelis don't have to know shit. They don't even know how much of Palestinian culture they ape as "Israeli" culture. Israeli, my ass.
As far as Syria goes you should listen to Vanessa Beeley’s Substack. She is an expat who lives in Syria and knows what Israel and the U.S. have been doing to that country, bombing it always bombing Syria for no reason. It’s Israel that doesn’t want to live with other ethnic groups. Why do they bomb Syria, the Iranian consulate and kill the Hamas negotiator while he was a guest in Tehran?! Israel always starts bombing other countries like Syria, Lebanon and places in Iran without provocation. The murdered Hamas negotiator was not even a militant for Pete’s sake.
Israel bombs selected targets in Syria because Syria has allied with Iran and provides transit facilities for Iranian military advisers to its proxy Hezbollah, as well as advanced missiles and drones made by Iran destined for Hezbollah.
You are spouting and absolute faulted and absurdity not a single one of the air states expelled juice. There was some reaction among the population when Lebanon was attacked and much of it destroyed. But if you do some real research, you will find, for example, that a fundamental cornerstone of Islam is to respect and protect the people of the book Jews, and Christians as well as Muslims.
Are you serious? Do your homework. Roughly 750,000 Jews left Arab countries after the Nakba. If they were so happy living among Arabs and weren’t expelled why did they leave to go to Israel with nothing except their clothes and portable property, leaving behind houses and businesses. Because that is what happened. I saw the tent city outside Tel Aviv in the 59s where many of them lived before they got back on their feet with jobs and houses.
You have your facts all screwed up.. the reason those Arab countries were emptied of Jews (you call it ethnic cleansing) happened because of the creation of israel, the very point Roslyn was making.. it’s because of Israel that Jews became less safe in other countries: a state that decided to represent all Jews and this state is murderous and violent undermines their safety in the end. Here, I refer you to the British Jewish politician, Edwin Montagu who opposed the zionist project because it was antisemitic. On the matter, he states:
...I assume that it means that Mahommedans [Muslims] and Christians are to make way for the Jews and that the Jews should be put in all positions of preference and should be peculiarly associated with Palestine in the same way that England is with the English or France with the French, that Turks and other Mahommedans in Palestine will be regarded as foreigners, just in the same way as Jews will hereafter be treated as foreigners in every country but Palestine. Perhaps also citizenship must be granted only as a result of a religious test.
Also, pogroms and ethnic cleansing of Jews has always been a uniquely Christian phenomena and never a Muslim one. That’s why I say you have your facts all screwed up but it is expected since the western mind has been heavily propagandized (psy-oped) on this topic (& many others).
They are not wholly Muslim they are Muslim majority and they are nothing like Israel because they are not actively working to exterminate non-Muslims as Israel works to exterminate non-Jews. And the Jewish minorities were bullied and frightened into leaving by Zionist/Mossad violence not by the people of the country they called home for centuries.
No state has a right to exist. No religion has a right to a state or self determination and no-one for any reason has a right to take someone else's country by force and genocidal violence and then spend a century nearly subjecting the native people of the land they have stolen to truly sadistic and bestial military colonial occupation rule.
Israel is a disgrace and it must and will be dismantled. And for what it is worth, most Jews do not live in what is called Israel, never did and never will and if you claim Israel represents Judaism given its history of vile atrocities then you are an anti-semite expressing a hatred of Judaism and Jews.
You hit the nail on the head. My thoughts exactly. So many groups, not just religious ones, have been persecuted throughout history. There should never be a nation based on one’s religion in the first place. It’s absolutely absurd.
Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt aas well as many other countries, e.g. in Asia and Africa are wholly Muslim or, if not, tolerate religious minorities. Large Jewish minorities in all of these countries have been reduced to near zero by ethnic cleansing. So much for your claim that there should never be a nation based on one's religion
The Mossad planted bombs in Iraqi Synagogues in the 1950's to hasten Iraqi Jews move to Israel.
You are talking about 'ethnic cleansing'. Imagine a grand ledger before you right now, with a vertical line down the middle. You can enter the verifiable body count of Jews killed by ethnic cleansing in these places, in the column on the left and the muslims killed by jews or western 'Christians' on the right. You may wish to brush up on scientific notation first.
In my lifetime alone, I have witnessed literally millions of muslims slaughtered and yet perhaps a few hundred jews or christians killed by muslims in the same period. So who is ethnically cleansing who ?
I like to put up a map of Israel from 1946 in that column on the left and a map from this year , on the right and get people like yourself to argue how the Palestinians are the problem using the irrefutable maps. It should be classic comedy of the absurd.
In either case, neither numbers or maps lie and I wish people would stop embarrassing both of us by attempting to do so.
Jews slaughtered upwards of 50K Christian at the Mamilla Pool in 614 AD until the Persians finally stopped them.
Jews were as barbaric as any other religion in ancient times. They wandered into Palestine and set up camp about 3000 years ago. The Egyptians made a note when a tribe called Judah arrived. Colonists then as now. To be fair, in the times everyone was doing the same thing. The invasion of 1947/48 and the colonial State of Israel happened when everyone was not doing the same thing.
I always say the Jews of the late 19th/early 20th century were a bit late to the game of colonialism and are upset that contemporary folk don’t afford them the same barbarity of previous eras. They decided to colonise when colonialism was out of fashion & universal human rights started to become all the rage (ironically, in large part, because of their suffering). In other words, they have desperately been trying to have their cake and eat it since 1948..
Well said. Since we have thousands of years of historical records and images for Palestinians in Palestine, and we know Israel was invented in Palestine nearly 80 years ago, logic decrees that Israel sits in the land of Palestine and everything Israelis say is theirs actually belongs to Palestinians. It has all been stolen.
We also know that since 530 Palestinian towns and villages were wiped from the face of the earth by Zionist forces in 47/48 that logically, a lot of Palestinians were exterminated or expelled. Israel has built and planted over the ruins but we know where they are because they remain marked on British mandate maps and even more ancient maps of Palestine.
I did reply previously and it disappeared.
Colonisation was no doubt a critical part of human evolution for thousands of years. It diminished as humans evolved. By the time the Zionists were making their plans to colonise Palestine they had missed the use-by date for such actions by more than a century.
Colonialism was not so much out of fashion as not required and deemed to be unjust. The Zionists were racists and atheists and have never represented Judaism, just exploited it and too many equally racist and gullible Jews.
The reality is that if the Israelis had been smart and not racists they would have done what all other nations founded through colonisation and calling themselves Western democracies have done and that is one state where the native people share the land as equal citizens with the colonists. They did not do that because their racism was entrenched and they really did and do believe non-Jews are inferior and Palestinian non-Jews, are subhuman.
Since Zionism is a half a century older than Nazism we can only wonder who got Untermenschen from whom.
If Zionists, Israelis and too many Jews did not have this rabid and racist belief in the subhuman nature of the Palestinians, they could have created a vibrant State and a healthy democracy. The Palestinians have a long history of sophistication, civilisation and respect for education and culture. The combination of the groups would have been inspiring.
But that did not happen and Israel as it was formed and as it has functioned is a taint on the modern world and an open wound for Judaism. It must be dismantled. Israelis and their supporters are too brainwashed in hate, bigotry, fear and irrational rage to ever be able to live alongside the Palestinians. There would be some exceptions but they are few. Most will have to go back to where they, their parents or grandparents came from.
Many already have with young Israelis doing exactly that in recent decades and one of the largest communities is in Berlin. They feel safer in Germany than Israel all of which validates the reality that an Israel for Jews as refuge was never needed and certainly is not needed now.
It needs to be remembered that colonial States can be dismantled after centuries. The Portugese went back after 500 years in Angola so 76 years of European colonists in Palestine, is, by comparison, nothing but a blink of time's eye.
Well said, Roslyn. Zionism is a uniquely ultra racist ideology that has spawned a state that has almost zero viability. The only other comparable ideology is nazism and we all know how well that went..
Since Zionism predated Nazism by nearly four decades and they have much in common, one wonders who got what from whom?
We struggle to get the facts and the truth from events of the last 100 or even 20 years. Lets not cite alledged events that happened even before the invention of the printing press. 614 AD was back when everyone was slaughtering everyone, before anger management was invented.
If you want something a little more reliable to accuse Israelis of, in their treatment of Christians, search Youtube for Israelis spitting on Christians including Nuns and barring prelates from practicing their faith and carrying out church business .... all within the last couple years and captured on video.
Before the printing press there was papyrus and writings carved in stone. We know a lot more about such times than you think. It is because of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs we know Palestine and Palestinians have existed for more than 5000 years and they invaded Egypt more than once.
So you believe the archivists of the past 1500 years kept their papyrus and fought to the death any Pope or King or politician from messing with it or getting access to the time activated vault it was stored in ? What was stopping a jew, sitting on a rock, from scratching "It never happened. I was there" on a stone and putting it in a cave ? If you walked into a court today with your evidence, what do you think the judge would have to say, if they even let you see one ? There is not a whimper of a prayer of these events being awarded any credibility and that is not to say it didn't happen. Maybe they killed 100,000. Nobody would know for sure but lots will claim confidence in their numbers for no credible reason.
I agree that the printing press made more information and data available but that too was prone to rewrites and tampering. And ancient writings ranged from the largely daily banalities of lists and wishes, for good and ill, to the claimed conquests of Kings.
I merely make the point that there was information available from ancient times prior to the invention of the printing press. Hieroglyphs and Cuneiform go back thousands of years and when transcribed, as the Rosetta Stone made possible for the former, are invaluable.
As to credibility, that is where the gathering of historical data to support the claims is so important. Yes, much of archaeology is conjecture and supposition but there are also facts available to make a case.
But in essence I agree with you that what matters is the contemporary evidence for savagery by the Israelis.
Get your terms right. Palestine was a rename given by the Romans to Israel after the destruction of the Second Temple. It alludes to the Philistines who colonised Gaza in ancient times. I am not sure that Philistines ever invaded Egypt, or even Israel for that matter. Egypt invaded both areas.
Since we have clear evidence that the words Palestine and Palestinians were written down by the Egyptians more than 5000 years ago, carved in stone, we know that Palestine was not a name given by the Romans who did not even exist until thousands of years after the Palestinians were being talked about in Egypt.
Same for the Philistines, a people who did not exist until thousands of years after the Palestinians and Palestine were mentioned.
Yes Egypt invaded both areas and the Palestinians invaded Egypt more than once. I suggest you study Egyptology and get the facts.
The Philistine/Roman blather is Zio propaganda trying to prove that Palestine was invented later. It was not and it is ridiculous to claim that it was.
And as an aside for the Bible worshippers, the story of the Jews fleeing Egypt is yet another lie, as is the story they were slaves. The Egyptians never mentioned them and no the Habiru theory does not cut it, and when the Jews were supposedly fleeing to Palestine/Canaan it was an Egyptian colony so they would have been fleeing Egypt into Egypt.
https://www.jpost.com/local-israel/in-jerusalem/massacre-at-mamilla
Never heard of that event.
The Zionists pushed, promoted and actively created false flags to bully, bribe, terrify Jews living safely in Arab and Muslim countries to become colonists in Palestine. More Zio lies. Most Iranian Jews did not fall for it and remained in their homeland.
When Europeans drove Jews out centuries ago it was the Arab and Muslim worlds which offered them sanctuary. Stick with facts, it works better.
As to a religion needing its own country, since most Jews do not, never did and never will live in what is called Israel we can safely conclude it was never necessary. The most dangerous place for a Jew is what is called Israel. The sickest culture in which anyone can live, including Jews, is Israel. How fortunate most do not live there.
In fact even after the horrors for Jews in WWII most did not choose to go to Palestine and what is called Israel as colonists.
None of those countries are "wholly Muslim". The Jewish minorities that were removed were removed through Mossad-generated bombings back in the 50's and 60's. Not ethnic cleansing on the part of those Arab (and Persian) countries. What are you? A bot?
I never said that they were wholly Muslim but they did have large Jewish populations but not any more. As for Mossad bombs to ‘persuade’ them to move to Israel I don’t know for certain whether that happened or not and you probably don’t know either. Muslims don’t treat minority faiths very well. There aren’t many Christian’s left in Bethlehem for instance. And Egypt doesn’t treat Coptic Christians very well either.
Actually, I do know because I grew up in the Middle East. When these false flag operations were being done in Syria in 1956 all Americans were kicked out temporarily to protect the sovereignty of the country--the CIA was working with Mossad in that case. And in Iran 40% of my graduating class were Iraqi Jews who were bribed by the Shah to take professional jobs--mostly in the oil fields--when Saddam Hussein first came to power in 1963. As Prof. Shlaim has written, many Iraqi Jews were convinced through terrorist violence to emigrate to Israel where they were treated extremely badly. Most Middle Eastern jews who emigrated to Israel ended up there in this manner and shared the same experience of racism by Ashkenazi as the Iraqi Jews of the early 1950's. My classmates moved as a large community, most of them related by blood in 1963, not so much because of the Mossad as because the Shah was offering them nice salaries. And after the Iranian Revolution they moved to other countries as a large community and most have done very well. Only a few went to Israel but left shortly thereafter because they were treated as servants, second-class citizens, there. Traditionally Muslims have treated their religious minorities quite well, in fact. Read up on the Islamic Empire which reached to Spain. It was the Christians who were particularly violent. Zionists are not very tolerant. They are currently trying to remove Christians of various tripes from the West Bank which is where most of the places Christians want to visit are. It sounds like they have bombed most Christian churches in Gaza to smithereens. They are very actively trying to steal the entire Armenian Quarter of Jerusalem. You sound like a representative of the Israeli propaganda machine. Knock yourself out. The truth is more effective. And long-lasting. I suggest you read some real history rather than bullshit the ZOA disseminates.
Thank you for a very interesting reply. I won’t argue with any of it. Partly because you are discussing events of which I have no knowledge and partly because I know that Ashkenazim were prejudiced against Jews of colour (and probably still are but to a lesser extent). Yemeni Jews had their babies stolen at birth, told they had died but there were no bodies to bury. They had been sold to adoptees. Ethiopian Jews had difficulty being accepted.
Yes. David Sheen has done a lot of reporting on the racism Ethiopian Jews have experienced. Well-worth watching his YouTubes.
If you have no knowledge of such events then we can safely conclude you have little real knowledge. Anyone wishing to understand this issue would and should have such knowledge.
If Muslims do not treat minority faiths very well how do you explain so many Jews remaining in Iran?
The Jews are killing and expelling Christians in Bethlehem not Muslims.
Egypt does not treat anyone very well as a US/Israeli stooge most of the time.
Christians leaving Bethlehem are not doing so because of any specific actions or pressure by Israel directed against the community.
I asked ChatGPT. This is its reply
“The Christian population of Bethlehem has decreased in recent years due to several factors:
1. **Political Instability and Conflict**: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has significantly impacted the region, leading to a decline in the local economy and creating a challenging living environment. The construction of the Israeli separation barrier, restrictions on movement, and periodic violence have made life difficult for residents, prompting many to emigrate.
2. **Economic Hardships**: Bethlehem's economy, traditionally reliant on tourism, has suffered due to the political situation. Security concerns and travel restrictions have deterred tourists, reducing income for local businesses. Economic opportunities in Bethlehem are limited, pushing many, particularly Christians, to seek better prospects abroad.
3. **Emigration**: Many Christians in Bethlehem have emigrated to the West or other countries with more stable environments. The pull of better economic opportunities, combined with the push of local hardships, has led to a significant outflow of the Christian population.
4. **Demographic Changes**: The overall population in Bethlehem and the West Bank is growing, but the Christian community is shrinking proportionally due to lower birth rates compared to the Muslim population and higher emigration rates.
5. **Social Pressures**: Some Christians in Bethlehem have reported feeling increasing social pressures as a religious minority, which can contribute to their decision to leave.
These factors combined have led to a steady decline in the Christian population in Bethlehem, a trend seen in other parts of the Middle East as well.”
To run through your excuses for Christians leaving Palestine.
1. **Political Instability and Conflict**: - caused by Israel with the goal of exterminating or expelling all non-Jews.
2. **Economic Hardships**: Caused by Israel seeking to rid Palestine of all non-Jews. An active policy by the Israeli military colonial rulers.
3. **Emigration**: Pushed and caused by Israel under its policy of ethnic cleansing. Make life impossible to rid Palestine of non-Jews.
4. **Demographic Changes**: Caused by Israel making life impossible for non-Jews.
5. **Social Pressures**: From the Israelis who work to rid Palestine of non-Jews.
We have Jews defecating and urinating in Christian churches and spitting on Christians in the street as well as murdering and maiming them as they do with Muslims so why would it be surprising if some have left? All Israeli policy, procedure and practice.
I did laugh. Anyone who asks ChatGPT is either about 12 years old or lacking adult intelligence. For heaven’s sake, the chat stuff is all propaganda and totally unreliable.
The ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Christians that nobody is talking about
As Christmas approaches, it is sad to reflect on the fact that Palestinian Christians are leaving the birthplace of Christianity in droves. For Israel, this exodus is a boon as a Palestine without Christians will enable it, in a world rife with Islamophobia, to portray its conflict with Palestine as a religious war. Ramzy Baroud explains.
Palestine’S Christian population is dwindling at an alarming rate. The world’s most ancient Christian community is moving elsewhere. And the reason for this is Israel.
Christian leaders from Palestine and South Africa sounded the alarm at a conference in Johannesburg on 15 October. Their gathering was titled ‘The Holy Land: A Palestinian Christian Perspective’.
One major issue that highlighted itself at the meetings is the rapidly declining number of Palestinian Christians in Palestine.
There are various estimates on how many Palestinian Christians are still living in Palestine today, compared with the period before 1948 when the state of Israel was established atop Palestinian towns and villages. Regardless of the source of the various studies, there is a near-consensus that the number of Christian inhabitants of Palestine has dropped by nearly 10-fold in the last 70 years.
A population census carried out by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics in 2017 concluded that 47,000 Palestinian Christians are living in Palestine – with reference to the Occupied West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip. Ninety-eight percent of Palestine’s Christians live in the West Bank – concentrated mostly in the cities of Ramallah, Bethlehem and Jerusalem – while the remainder, a tiny Christian community of merely 1,100 people, live in the besieged Gaza Strip.
The demographic crisis that had afflicted the Christian community decades ago is now brewing.
For example, 70 years ago, Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus Christ, was 86% Christian. The demographics of the city, however, have fundamentally shifted, especially after the Israeli occupation of the West Bank in June 1967 and the construction of the illegal Israeli apartheid wall starting in 2002. Parts of the wall were meant to cut off Bethlehem from Jerusalem and to isolate the former from the rest of the West Bank.
‘The Wall encircles Bethlehem by continuing south of East Jerusalem in both the east and west,’ the ‘Open Bethlehem’ organisation said, describing the devastating impact of the wall on the Palestinian city. ‘With the land isolated by the Wall, annexed for settlements, and closed under various pretexts, only 13% of the Bethlehem district is available for Palestinian use.’
Increasingly beleaguered, Palestinian Christians in Bethlehem have been driven out from their historic city in large numbers. According to the city’s mayor, Vera Baboun, as of 2016, the Christian population of Bethlehem has dropped to 12%, merely 11,000 people.
The most optimistic estimates place the overall number of Palestinian Christians in the whole of Occupied Palestine at less than 2%.
Pressure of Israeli occupation
The correlation between the shrinking Christian population in Palestine, and the Israeli occupation and apartheid should be unmistakable, as it is evident to Palestine’s Christian and Muslim communities alike.
A study conducted by Dar al-Kalima University in the West Bank town of Beit Jala and published in December 2017 interviewed nearly 1,000 Palestinians, half of them Christian and the other half Muslim. One of the main goals of the research was to understand the reason behind the depleting Christian population in Palestine.
The study concluded that ‘the pressure of Israeli occupation, ongoing constraints, discriminatory policies, arbitrary arrests, confiscation of lands added to the general sense of hopelessness among Palestinian Christians’, who are finding themselves in ‘a despairing situation where they can no longer perceive a future for their offspring or for themselves’.
Unfounded claims that Palestinian Christians are leaving because of religious tensions between them and their Muslim brethren are, therefore, irrelevant.
I suggest that the Jewish population of Iran would leave for other countries if they could. As it is, they are a captive population and have to be extremely careful to avoid being seen to give comfort in any way to Israel
You made me laugh again. Are you a comedian in your spare time or some kid in a bunker in Tel Aviv playing with the bots to get answers?
Iranian Jews could leave if they wished. They do not wish to do so. They are Iranians and part of an ancient culture.
Iran's Jews: It's Our Home And We Plan To Stay
February 19, 2015
Iran's Jews reject cash offer to move to Israel
· Expats offer families £30,000 to emigrate · Our identity is not for sale, say community leaders
The ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab and North African countries post 1948 is a matter of record and parallels Arabs who left Palestine because of the Nakba during Israel’s War of Independence. Ethnic cleansing in these cases does not equate to lives lost.
Also, Muslim lives lost to Crusaders or military actions by Western nation both pre- and post-1948 are not directly the fault of Israel. Western nations have always had their own reasons for seeking hegemonic dominance of the area.
However, Israel does exact a very high price in Muslim Arab lives in retaliation for the lives of Jews killed by Palestinian Arabs who ‘resist’ occupation. This practice has not succeeded in deterring Arab resistance to occupation. It’s not that Arabs hold their lives more cheaply. Rather they welcome martyrdom in the service of Islam. This is at odds with Judeo-Christian values and is irreconcilable. There used to be a cadre of Israelis who understood the Arab psyche, spoke Arabic and knew how to live with them. There are fewer of them now, replaced by right-wing demagogues with an antipathy to Arabs which militates against compromise.
Yes. A Hasbara bot.
Only links?
I think the claim of refugee to go to Israel is image building or like all the asylum seekers coming across US south borders.
I'm sorry. Please expand. I do not understand either comment you have made here. How is "the claim of refugee to go to Israel is imagine building" related to "the asylum seekers coming across US south borders".
How long are you going to repeat the lies of the West? It’s really getting old. It’s also a matter of record that Muslims,Jews and Christians all got along before the Zionists came and stole land that didn’t belong to them. These religious groups all lived pretty much in peace before the Zionist influence. You spout stuff with no evidence. It’s not about Judaism. It’s about Zionism. You don’t even have to be Jewish to be a Zionist. This movement started way before the Holocaust. Please quit lying. Most Jews want nothing to do with Zionism. Listen to Holocaust survivors who have come out against Israel and people like Miko Peled who is a former IOF member and lived in Israel and whose father was a strong Zionist, but he chose to become an activist for a free Palestine. He is Israeli and Jewish, btw.
I try hard to tell the truth as I understand it to be. If I say something that can be proven to be categorically untrue I will apologise and not repeat it. Muslims, Jews and Christians did get along pretty well as long as the Christians and Jews knew their place as second class, paid their taxes and were useful. It didn’t always prevent the occasional massacre. As for stealing the land you should choose your words more carefully. Zionists bought the land with hard cash from Arab landowners. No land was stolen from individual Arabs. When independence was declared in 1948 properties vacated by Arabs were taken over and occupied (stolen if you like) by opportunist Jews but their actions were analogous to similar events in Arab countries which ethnically cleansed their Jewish populations and appropriated their assets without compensation. I know two wrongs don’t make a right but ‘Palestine’ prior to the arrival of Zionists had indigenous Jews as well as Arabs and the Jews hadn’t colonised it, the Arabs had.
Another Zio lie. Yes Zionists bought some land in Palestine through bullying, bribery and dishonesty but the amount was truly trivial. None of it gave them the right to take the whole country.
By your criteria because Jews own land in the US they can invade, occupy, set up their own State (well they have in a way) and treat Americans as they treat Palestinians.
SAME MISTAKE - remember, apples with apples. You cannot compare Jews, a religion, with Arabs a culture.
And let us not fib or actively lie. Palestine has a history going back more than 5000 years and it belongs to the Palestinian people, regardless of their religion. Palestine does not belong to Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus or any other religion. It belongs to Palestinians and it will be free.
Two wrongs do not make a right and there is something truly evil about Jews doing to Christians and Muslims in Palestine what was done to many European Jews during WWII. And doing it for nearly 80 years not four or five. It is horrifying that Israeli Zio-Jewish culture teaches their children the concept of Untermenschen, that non-Jews are inferior and Palestinian non-Jews are not even human and can be crushed like insects. Just a nuisance that there is so much blood and not just some icky white goo.
Re land purchase by bullying, bribery and dishonesty, where is your evidence for this claim?
Re the right to take the whole country, I refer you to this extract
“In international law, there is a principle in international law referred to as Uti Possidetus Juris, literally translating to “as you possess,” a Roman legal doctrine first cited in private municipal law.
Uti Possidetus Juris maintains that when a new country is created where there was not a separate country previously, the borders of the new country are identical to the borders of the last top-level geopolitical entity in that territory. Professor Kontorovich illustrated this concept with the example of Crimea, which the international community regards as currently occupied by Russia but truly part of Ukraine. The reason for this international consensus is that Ukraine declared independence upon the dissolution of the USSR–the last top geopolitical entity in the territory–thus taking on boundaries that included within it the newly-constituted independent Ukraine.
In May 1948, Israel declared its independence, meaning that by the accepted legal principle of Uti Possidetis Juris, the new state inherited the same borders as Mandatory Palestine, which came before it, specifically the land from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. It is important to note that Palestine did not declare statehood when Israel did. Instead, they willingly handed their fate to invading armies of a combined Arab force drawn from neighboring states. If the Palestinians had declared independence, then the two forces would have fought for the power to govern the new state with borders set by the mandate. However, that legal fight for governance never materialized. Therefore, when we apply the rule of international law that is used to determine the borders of all new countries, Israel must be recognized as the only successor entity to the mandate.”
Are you genuinely interested in evidence where the Zionists stole the land of the Palestinians that fled due to the pograms and violence visited upon them by the irgun, for example?? So you see no evidence in the history books that supports the fact that the Palestinians that were driven out of their villages were NOT allowed to return and that their homes and land were illegally given to the European Jews??
You need evidence for that? Ok, sure. Read Ilan Pape, Rashid Khalidi, Edward Said, amongst others.
Well said. Since we have thousands of years of historical records and images for Palestinians in Palestine, and we know Israel was invented in Palestine nearly 80 years ago, logic decrees that Israel sits in the land of Palestine and everything Israelis say is theirs actually belongs to Palestinians. It has all been stolen.
We also know that since 530 Palestinian towns and villages were wiped from the face of the earth by Zionist forces in 47/48 that logically, a lot of Palestinians were exterminated or expelled. Israel has built and planted over the ruins but we know where they are because they remain marked on British mandate maps and even more ancient maps of Palestine.
You said:
Re the right to take the whole country, I refer you to this extract
“In international law, there is a principle in international law referred to as Uti Possidetus Juris, literally translating to “as you possess,” a Roman legal doctrine first cited in private municipal law.
So you are saying because Jews have bought land in any country they have a right to take the entire country as their own?
You said: Uti Possidetus Juris maintains that when a new country is created where there was not a separate country previously, the borders of the new country are identical to the borders of the last top-level geopolitical entity in that territory.
BUT THERE WAS A SEPARATE COUNTRY AND THAT COUNTRY WAS CALLED PALESTINE AND HAD BEEN FOR MORE THAN 5000 YEARS.
That gazumps your silly rules spewed up by the bot.
However, since Israel has no declared borders it does not exist and the only country which does exist is Palestine. Also, since the Zionist invasion of 1947 following the UN recommendation for partition has not abided by the UN recommendation then that UN mandate is null and void. More important, the UN, League of nations and Lord Balfour had no legal right to partition any country on earth so the 1947 UN recommendation was not just immoral it was illegal. LET'S TEST IT IN A COURT OF LAW SHALL WE?
I disagree the indigenous Jews were the ones who lived there with the indigenous Palestinians. I never said the Jews shouldn’t be there at all, but it’s the Zionists who are the problem. These groups were at peace with each other for the most part until the Zionists came.
You said it. “ For the most part”
Not all the time. Sometimes the Arabs would turn on the Christians and the Jews, slit a few throats pour encourager les autres. Early Jewish settlers in Palestine had similar problems. There was a massacre in Hebron. My grandparents feared for their lives in Jerusalem pre-WW1.
Lots of people have feared for their lives throughout history but it does not give them the right to become bestial sadists toward others as the Israelis have done.
Arab - culture. Christian and Jew - religion. Get it right.
Hindus in India are still murdering Christians and Muslims. It happens. That would not give Muslims and Christians the right to do the same to Hindus as Jews think they can do to Palestinian Christians and Muslims.
The bestial sadists were Hamas on 7 October. Israel, on the other hand, is fighting a remarkably humane war. It may not seem like it. It doesn’t seem like it. But the kill ratios support my view and this is widely recognised by military observers. Example. When the USA and allies bombed Mosul in their attempt to destroy ISIS, they cared not a jot about the far greater deaths of innocents nor were they criticised for their actions.
The Palestinians are mere amateurs for bestiality and sadistic cruelty compared to the Israelis and we have that reality documented for nearly 80 years. Not just Israeli and international human rights groups but the testimonies of ex soldiers sickened at what they saw, did and were ordered to do.
The Israeli army will go down as one of the most bestial and evil in history. So much for their humanity:
1. Israeli snipers shooting pregnant women in the stomach and filming themselves wearing T shirts saying ONE SHOT TWO KILLS.
2. Israeli soldiers shooting toddlers in the head when they are playing. International doctors have reported that the number of toddlers killed in this way is huge.
3. Israeli soldiers stripping men and boys, tying them up, tossing them into pits and executing them.
4. Israeli soldiers shooting children trying to reach food and water.
5. Israeli soldiers shooting doctors inside hospitals as they try to save patients.
6. Israel denying medical aid so amputations and C-sections are done without anaesthetics. Many of the injured are children and some have had two, three, even four limbs removed without anaesthetics. Many of them have had eyes removed.
7. Israeli soldiers digging up cemeteries.
8. Israeli soldiers running excavators and tanks over dead or injured Palestinian men, women and children.
9 Israeli soldiers destroying Palestinian food.
10. Israeli soldiers playing with the lingerie of Palestinian women.
11. Israeli soldiers killing aid workers.
12. Israeli soldiers killing people trying to reach food.
13. Israeli soldiers actively targeting civilians knowing nearly half of them are children.
14. The death of Hind Rahab. A six year old girl travelling with family when the Israelis bombed their car and she was left alive with everyone else dead. She managed to call for help and emergency workers went out to rescue her. But the Israelis killed her, remember she is six years old, and then killed the aid workers trying to save her. The sadists sent 355 bullets into the car where she was hiding in terror.
Would you also be equally at home with ethnic Muslims, ethnic Christians, ethnic Wiccans declaring a state? The ethnic Muslims of China would choose to go and colonise modern day Saudi Arabia since their ancestors were the early Meccans, they could claim.. and, as per western media, they have been genocided by the Chinese.. so the same logic behind the creation myth of the state of Israel would definitely apply. All anybody would have to do is follow rhetorical textbook example of Israel. Declaring a religion an ethnicity: check! Persecution because of ethnicity/religion: check! Chosen-ness: well, anyone can say they were chosen and the proof is that god or the fairy at the bottom of their garden told them so, so: check!
The Yazidus in Iraq have been historically persecuted. Should they declare an ethnic Yazidi state? Would you support that? The Uighur should also declare their own state (after all, the west has declared their plight a genocide committed by the godless Chinese). How about the Church of Satan?
Why isn’t America exclusively a Protestant country that represents all Protestants around the world since the early colonisers themselves, were persecuted by the church and many fled to the new world driven by that religious persecution??
Now, if you think the Jews have an exclusive right to statehood based on a) persecution: they’re not the first or last religious group to be persecuted;
and b) chosen-ness: everyone and their dog thinks their special..then you’re argument is not even weak it’s non existent..
I’ll give you that. What I mean is I get what you’re saying, but that doesn’t justify what is going on now in Gaza. Do you not know about the rapes of Palestinian men in those horrific Israeli prisons? The murder of the 6 year old Palestinian girl and her whole family when they were trying to escape the air strikes from American/Israeli bombs and then the two ambulance drivers also killed by Israeli tanks? The murdering of doctors in hospitals in Gaza just trying to save babies? The children whose heads, limbs, arms etc. that have been blown off?! Where have you been. There is nothing you can tell me that will justify this genocide. Not saying you are doing that, but this is happening now. And don’t say Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields b/c that’s been debunked just like the 40 beheaded babies and it’s actually the Israelis that use Palestinians as human shields going into the tunnels to find Hamas fighters and use their own citizens as human shields(Hannibal Directive). There is plenty of evidence to back this up.
The Jews were a truly trivial and tiny part of Palestinian society. But, even if they had been a majority they still had no right to take Palestine for their theocratic, racist, colonial state.
No Jew has a right to claim a grain of sand on planet earth regardless of any reasons or excuses. Same for all religions.
No Jew has a right to Palestine and no human being has a right to take someone else's country with genocidal ethnic cleansing and then subject the native people who are left to a truly sadistic, bestial, cruel level of colonial savagery.
Israel is and was always illegal and immoral and its appalling and evil treatment of the Palestinians for nearly 80 years is a taint on Judaism and Jews and an abiding reason why Ziorael must be eradicated.
Muslims would rather live long lives than die young, the same as Jews or Christians or atheists. However, if reclaiming their ancestral lands will result from Palestinians dying, they will die for their land and, more importantly, for the next generations and for their parents' and grandparents' traumatic loss of rights. Jews and Christians also will die for their so-called "values". Look at how we treat American soldiers who die while "serving". (What a ridiculous word.) And how IDF who die in a war are treated as heroes. What did they do that was heroic? The "cadre of Israelis" who were more tuned into Arabs were actually Arabs, forcefully manipulated to emigrate from their natal Arab countries. Their kids are the assholes following right-wing demagogues. I think Ben Gvir is Iraqi Jewish. The other two--Smotrich and I can't remember his made-up name--are Ukrainian or Polish. Some people know Arabic to some degree. But the way colonialism works is the minority knows more of the majority culture than the majority knows the minority. That's why African-Americans know way more about European-American culture than European-Americans know of Black culture. They have to in order to survive. Anglos don't have to know shit. Jewish Israelis don't have to know shit. They don't even know how much of Palestinian culture they ape as "Israeli" culture. Israeli, my ass.
As far as Syria goes you should listen to Vanessa Beeley’s Substack. She is an expat who lives in Syria and knows what Israel and the U.S. have been doing to that country, bombing it always bombing Syria for no reason. It’s Israel that doesn’t want to live with other ethnic groups. Why do they bomb Syria, the Iranian consulate and kill the Hamas negotiator while he was a guest in Tehran?! Israel always starts bombing other countries like Syria, Lebanon and places in Iran without provocation. The murdered Hamas negotiator was not even a militant for Pete’s sake.
Yes I do read her.
Israel bombs selected targets in Syria because Syria has allied with Iran and provides transit facilities for Iranian military advisers to its proxy Hezbollah, as well as advanced missiles and drones made by Iran destined for Hezbollah.
You are spouting and absolute faulted and absurdity not a single one of the air states expelled juice. There was some reaction among the population when Lebanon was attacked and much of it destroyed. But if you do some real research, you will find, for example, that a fundamental cornerstone of Islam is to respect and protect the people of the book Jews, and Christians as well as Muslims.
Are you serious? Do your homework. Roughly 750,000 Jews left Arab countries after the Nakba. If they were so happy living among Arabs and weren’t expelled why did they leave to go to Israel with nothing except their clothes and portable property, leaving behind houses and businesses. Because that is what happened. I saw the tent city outside Tel Aviv in the 59s where many of them lived before they got back on their feet with jobs and houses.
50s not 59s
You have your facts all screwed up.. the reason those Arab countries were emptied of Jews (you call it ethnic cleansing) happened because of the creation of israel, the very point Roslyn was making.. it’s because of Israel that Jews became less safe in other countries: a state that decided to represent all Jews and this state is murderous and violent undermines their safety in the end. Here, I refer you to the British Jewish politician, Edwin Montagu who opposed the zionist project because it was antisemitic. On the matter, he states:
...I assume that it means that Mahommedans [Muslims] and Christians are to make way for the Jews and that the Jews should be put in all positions of preference and should be peculiarly associated with Palestine in the same way that England is with the English or France with the French, that Turks and other Mahommedans in Palestine will be regarded as foreigners, just in the same way as Jews will hereafter be treated as foreigners in every country but Palestine. Perhaps also citizenship must be granted only as a result of a religious test.
Also, pogroms and ethnic cleansing of Jews has always been a uniquely Christian phenomena and never a Muslim one. That’s why I say you have your facts all screwed up but it is expected since the western mind has been heavily propagandized (psy-oped) on this topic (& many others).
They are not wholly Muslim they are Muslim majority and they are nothing like Israel because they are not actively working to exterminate non-Muslims as Israel works to exterminate non-Jews. And the Jewish minorities were bullied and frightened into leaving by Zionist/Mossad violence not by the people of the country they called home for centuries.
No state has a right to exist. No religion has a right to a state or self determination and no-one for any reason has a right to take someone else's country by force and genocidal violence and then spend a century nearly subjecting the native people of the land they have stolen to truly sadistic and bestial military colonial occupation rule.
Israel is a disgrace and it must and will be dismantled. And for what it is worth, most Jews do not live in what is called Israel, never did and never will and if you claim Israel represents Judaism given its history of vile atrocities then you are an anti-semite expressing a hatred of Judaism and Jews.