Ukraine is a Moribund Nation whose Flower (i.e. young men) have been Slaughtered *on an industrial scale.* The time has come to Make Peace, regardless of the cost. The reason is simple:
Ultimately a Nation is its people. & if the people are LOST (via Slaughter, Emigration, etc.), then the Nation is likewise lost & Dies a Brutal Death. Such an outcome is happening right now, before our very eyes, in the Ukrainian Nation. 'Make Peace, You FOOLs!' is the only meaningful slogan left.
I don't understand how people like Mearsheimer can be so right about their view on Israel/ Gaza, but so wrong in their view on Russia/Ukraine? Why don't you tell Palestinians to give up their land because they are being slaughtered - there is a real loss of a Nation and its people happening in Gaza - is the answer there also total surrender to the powerful aggressor?
In the 2022 debate, Mearsheimer justified his views, at least in part, based on morality. In other words, Ukraine will lose, so the US must refuse to aid them in a fight. He has been proven to be wrong on losing, even though it might ultimately be the result. Nothing is ever clear to me.
The behavior of the US regarding Ukraine has been disgusting. I am ethnically Ukrainian and I have to stop myself from thinking about what half a million dead men means. Each of those men would have had children, who in turn would have had children. Millions of Ukrainian lives over generations will never come to be. This is unspeakably evil.
Do you absolve essentially all of Europe, including the new NATO members and Russia from responsibility?
While I'm asking questions. Can anyone explain to me how the US was responsible for the Khmer Rouge genocide in Cambodia? Mr. Walt said that in the debate and I found it to be offensive. Still, I've heard that consistently since the '70s but I've always thought is a dangerous leap of logic. Sure, US bombed them and bombed the NVA in Cambodia but I utterly fail to see how that makes the US responsible for emptying the cities, murdering and starving people by shipping food to China but maybe I've always been wrong.
US runs the world. See that opinion in lots of places. I put it in the same category of people in the 70s/80s who said car manufacturers had the technology to make cars that got 100 miles a gallon but didn't because of oil company pressure.
Most seem to overlook the fact that the Ukraine war is not for national sovereignty or citizen's rights regarding land and resources but for Blackrock and other international investors (too numerous to mention) who already own all that. Even the Ukranian soldiers are, often unwilling, mercenaries for those investors.
The Munk School is a really deep dark den of academic intrigue coming out of Peter Munk's Barrick Gold. George G.W. Bush was a big player in Barrick in its African dealings and in using the company to keep the price of gold down in the era after US dollar was taken off the gold standard. John Baird, Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister under PM Stephen Harper, played with Munk Centre like a toy to promote all his Zionist projects. When I was following closely, the Munks debates were designed to promote the agendas of Peter Munk and his partners in crime. Barrick Gold and the Munk Centre were to the Canadian Conservative government much like SNC Lavelin is to the Canadian Liberal Party now. Trudeau fired his Attorney General, Jody Raybouild Wilson when she tried to enforce Canadian criminal law on SNC.
How can Mearsheimer be so right on his analysis of the Israel/Gaza war but yet so wrong on the Ukraine/Russia war? It may be in the US interest to dump Ukraine and make nice with Putin in order to confront China with Russia on our side, but is it in Ukraine's interest to surrender sovereignty as well as all territory to Russia? Ukraine may lose the war to Russia in the long term because of population difference, but currently it is not losing - it is a stalemate. Mearsheimer is getting his information on Ukraine's losses from the Russian sources - his information is not true. It is stalement, but Russia has lost a lot more - men as well as equipment. If Congress approves the next aid package, Russia will be in really bad shape. If Putin dies (which will happen soon), Ukraine will be able to negotiate from a position of strength. Ukraine needs to hang in there till that time.
I watched the debate at the time and couldn't believe you and Stephen Walt didn't win in a landslide... Still can't, to be honest, and I am not naturally cospiratorial
Debating seems like a good approach, although a nice long paper beats listening.
Look forward to listening but the following jumped out at me:
"Mass casualties, a country in ruin, and billions of dollars in western aid has done little to advance the goals of either side."
Mass casualties - check
A country in ruin - Not sure I agree with this. The portions fought over certainly are but Kyiv isn't in ruins.
Little to advance goals of either side - One does not know how things will ultimately work out but
(1) Ukraine sure seems like a nation now; war can contribute to this as painful as it is. Even if ultimately totally conquered, they will likely rise again.
(2) Will ultimately be much more tightly integrated with EU even if a "rump state." Personally, I'd rather be a rump state within Europe than be part of an oppressive state. Being part of Europe was clearly the reason for the Maidan Revolution. It was not to make Ukraine safe for Nazi's as many here seem to believe.
In the end, one never knows the future course of history, and who knows, maybe Russia's paranoia could have been assuaged with other actions, but the arguments that the war has been worth it are pretty good even if Ukraine goes down in defeat eventually as chances are it will be an "indigestible shrimp."
300,000 fathers and sons killed. Approximately 10 million fled the country. And we’re still propping the war up and likely won’t stop until the death count doubles again. Elections suspended and political leaders exposed as power crazed plutocrats. I don’t think the final balance sheet will consider this a war we’ve forced on them to be a good one.
My only complaint about your post is that the war was forced. Encouraged maybe, but it was Ukraine's overwhelming desire to fight and one rarely knows how a war will go. Make your best decision and don't re-hash the decision after it is made...until much later.
I think you really ought to look a his a little more deeply if you seriously believe there was no involvement prior to Maidan. There absolutely was and the likes of Victoria Nuland have openly talked about it. There seems to be much that you're bafflingly unaware of about this to be honest
"people do not hop when the US says start 'hoppin."
----------
Some kinds of people absolutely DO start doing whatever is wanted when the USA says "I'm payin' ". The kind of people who don't mind breaking any eggs they need to, and who in turn will hire people who absolutely ENJOY breaking those eggs.
It was a rather small % of the population's decision (and desire) which abbeted Ukraine being maneuvered into a fight with the Russian Federation.
Maneuvering Ukraine into this fight took billions of dollars and several years of US State Department/CIA "encouragement" via avenues ranging from major western advertising agency formulated propaganda campaigns (including rewriting their primary school history books!) on through political bribery, assassination, terrorism and murder.
But that is not being "forced". Also, in your world, cows are not forced into the abattoir, just "heavily encouraged".
People act like the US has magical powers that enable it to manipulate events. It has resources, and yes, that buys influence, but until after the Maiden Revolution, there was essentially none. Even after, it wasn't much until Russia invaded the second time when yes, it became big dollars. The US certainly isn't going around assassinating people or engaging in terrorism; it might overlook people in Ukraine doing such things, but that is it.
Ukraine is a Moribund Nation whose Flower (i.e. young men) have been Slaughtered *on an industrial scale.* The time has come to Make Peace, regardless of the cost. The reason is simple:
Ultimately a Nation is its people. & if the people are LOST (via Slaughter, Emigration, etc.), then the Nation is likewise lost & Dies a Brutal Death. Such an outcome is happening right now, before our very eyes, in the Ukrainian Nation. 'Make Peace, You FOOLs!' is the only meaningful slogan left.
(For those interested)
If you wish to read (& listen!) to more of My commentary, here is my Main Stack:
https://thefallofthewest.substack.com
Thank You Kindly to everyone!
Isn't it up to the Ukrainian people to decide when they want to stop the war? Or is it up to you and Mearsheimer? Most surveys indicate that an overwhelming majority of Ukrainians want to continue the war. https://news.gallup.com/poll/512258/ukrainians-stand-behind-war-effort-despite-fatigue.aspx
I don't understand how people like Mearsheimer can be so right about their view on Israel/ Gaza, but so wrong in their view on Russia/Ukraine? Why don't you tell Palestinians to give up their land because they are being slaughtered - there is a real loss of a Nation and its people happening in Gaza - is the answer there also total surrender to the powerful aggressor?
the situation in Gaza is completely different, so your "why don't you" is off kilter.
What exactly is the difference?
read informed and qualified geopolitical analysts on this.
That's ok if you don't know yourself.
Great analogy.
In the 2022 debate, Mearsheimer justified his views, at least in part, based on morality. In other words, Ukraine will lose, so the US must refuse to aid them in a fight. He has been proven to be wrong on losing, even though it might ultimately be the result. Nothing is ever clear to me.
The behavior of the US regarding Ukraine has been disgusting. I am ethnically Ukrainian and I have to stop myself from thinking about what half a million dead men means. Each of those men would have had children, who in turn would have had children. Millions of Ukrainian lives over generations will never come to be. This is unspeakably evil.
Do you absolve essentially all of Europe, including the new NATO members and Russia from responsibility?
While I'm asking questions. Can anyone explain to me how the US was responsible for the Khmer Rouge genocide in Cambodia? Mr. Walt said that in the debate and I found it to be offensive. Still, I've heard that consistently since the '70s but I've always thought is a dangerous leap of logic. Sure, US bombed them and bombed the NVA in Cambodia but I utterly fail to see how that makes the US responsible for emptying the cities, murdering and starving people by shipping food to China but maybe I've always been wrong.
"Do you absolve essentially all of Europe, including the new NATO members and Russia from responsibility?"
Yes.
US runs the world. See that opinion in lots of places. I put it in the same category of people in the 70s/80s who said car manufacturers had the technology to make cars that got 100 miles a gallon but didn't because of oil company pressure.
Most seem to overlook the fact that the Ukraine war is not for national sovereignty or citizen's rights regarding land and resources but for Blackrock and other international investors (too numerous to mention) who already own all that. Even the Ukranian soldiers are, often unwilling, mercenaries for those investors.
Will ever the fog of war dissipate?
The Munk School is a really deep dark den of academic intrigue coming out of Peter Munk's Barrick Gold. George G.W. Bush was a big player in Barrick in its African dealings and in using the company to keep the price of gold down in the era after US dollar was taken off the gold standard. John Baird, Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister under PM Stephen Harper, played with Munk Centre like a toy to promote all his Zionist projects. When I was following closely, the Munks debates were designed to promote the agendas of Peter Munk and his partners in crime. Barrick Gold and the Munk Centre were to the Canadian Conservative government much like SNC Lavelin is to the Canadian Liberal Party now. Trudeau fired his Attorney General, Jody Raybouild Wilson when she tried to enforce Canadian criminal law on SNC.
How can Mearsheimer be so right on his analysis of the Israel/Gaza war but yet so wrong on the Ukraine/Russia war? It may be in the US interest to dump Ukraine and make nice with Putin in order to confront China with Russia on our side, but is it in Ukraine's interest to surrender sovereignty as well as all territory to Russia? Ukraine may lose the war to Russia in the long term because of population difference, but currently it is not losing - it is a stalemate. Mearsheimer is getting his information on Ukraine's losses from the Russian sources - his information is not true. It is stalement, but Russia has lost a lot more - men as well as equipment. If Congress approves the next aid package, Russia will be in really bad shape. If Putin dies (which will happen soon), Ukraine will be able to negotiate from a position of strength. Ukraine needs to hang in there till that time.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/08/world/europe/ukraine-russia-war-oleksandr-syrsky.html
I watched the debate at the time and couldn't believe you and Stephen Walt didn't win in a landslide... Still can't, to be honest, and I am not naturally cospiratorial
Debating seems like a good approach, although a nice long paper beats listening.
Look forward to listening but the following jumped out at me:
"Mass casualties, a country in ruin, and billions of dollars in western aid has done little to advance the goals of either side."
Mass casualties - check
A country in ruin - Not sure I agree with this. The portions fought over certainly are but Kyiv isn't in ruins.
Little to advance goals of either side - One does not know how things will ultimately work out but
(1) Ukraine sure seems like a nation now; war can contribute to this as painful as it is. Even if ultimately totally conquered, they will likely rise again.
(2) Will ultimately be much more tightly integrated with EU even if a "rump state." Personally, I'd rather be a rump state within Europe than be part of an oppressive state. Being part of Europe was clearly the reason for the Maidan Revolution. It was not to make Ukraine safe for Nazi's as many here seem to believe.
In the end, one never knows the future course of history, and who knows, maybe Russia's paranoia could have been assuaged with other actions, but the arguments that the war has been worth it are pretty good even if Ukraine goes down in defeat eventually as chances are it will be an "indigestible shrimp."
300,000 fathers and sons killed. Approximately 10 million fled the country. And we’re still propping the war up and likely won’t stop until the death count doubles again. Elections suspended and political leaders exposed as power crazed plutocrats. I don’t think the final balance sheet will consider this a war we’ve forced on them to be a good one.
My only complaint about your post is that the war was forced. Encouraged maybe, but it was Ukraine's overwhelming desire to fight and one rarely knows how a war will go. Make your best decision and don't re-hash the decision after it is made...until much later.
I think you really ought to look a his a little more deeply if you seriously believe there was no involvement prior to Maidan. There absolutely was and the likes of Victoria Nuland have openly talked about it. There seems to be much that you're bafflingly unaware of about this to be honest
There definitely was but much of the country decided to join the ride.
I said "essentially none." You can believe what you want; maybe I'm a sucker but people do not hop when the US says start 'hoppin.
@Jeff Boyd
(Quote)
"people do not hop when the US says start 'hoppin."
----------
Some kinds of people absolutely DO start doing whatever is wanted when the USA says "I'm payin' ". The kind of people who don't mind breaking any eggs they need to, and who in turn will hire people who absolutely ENJOY breaking those eggs.
@Jeff Boyd
It was a rather small % of the population's decision (and desire) which abbeted Ukraine being maneuvered into a fight with the Russian Federation.
Maneuvering Ukraine into this fight took billions of dollars and several years of US State Department/CIA "encouragement" via avenues ranging from major western advertising agency formulated propaganda campaigns (including rewriting their primary school history books!) on through political bribery, assassination, terrorism and murder.
But that is not being "forced". Also, in your world, cows are not forced into the abattoir, just "heavily encouraged".
@Brevette Pfc. Billy Masterson. Dont forget the influence of Russophobia that helped perpetuate a delusional need to "defend" the nation.
That's nutty. Well, maybe not nutty, but way off-base.
You sure about that? Because I've seen either credible evidence or clear proof of all of the above.
People act like the US has magical powers that enable it to manipulate events. It has resources, and yes, that buys influence, but until after the Maiden Revolution, there was essentially none. Even after, it wasn't much until Russia invaded the second time when yes, it became big dollars. The US certainly isn't going around assassinating people or engaging in terrorism; it might overlook people in Ukraine doing such things, but that is it.
>(1) Ukraine sure seems like a nation now; war can contribute to this as painful as it is.
Ukraine has been a sovereign nation state since 1991. Are you sure you know about Ukraine? Maybe you are talking about Palestine or Gaza.